Advisor to conservative group forced to resign after making reference to self defense

[Starr]

http://www.myfox8.com/wghp-unc-advis...,6011610.story

A retired professor at UNC Chapel Hill who is serving as an adviser to a campus group was asked to resign Friday after sending an e-mail the university deemed inappropriate, WTVD-TV reported Monday.

When Professor Emeritus Elliot Cramer, who was serving as the adviser to the campus group Youth for Western Civilization, was warned by e-mail that someone was circulating fliers with his home address, he responded:

"Thanks for your concern; I have a Colt .45 and I know how to use it."

Here is a hatewatch article:

The chancellor of the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill has shut down the UNC chapter of the anti-immigrant group Youth for Western Civilization after its faculty adviser joked about his proficiency with a Colt .45 handgun.

The adviser, professor of psychology Elliot Cramer, was responding to an E-mail alerting him that fliers bearing his photograph and home address had been distributed on campus. The fliers were captioned, “Why is your professor supporting white supremacy?” They urged students and faculty members to pressure Cramer to withdraw his support of Youth for Western Civilization, a national organization with direct ties to hate groups and white nationalist websites.

“Thanks for your concern,” Cramer replied in a Sept. 19 E-mail that he copied to Chancellor Holden Thorp. “I have a Colt .45, and I know how to use it. I used to be able to hit a quarter at 50 feet seven times out of ten.”

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2009/0...oup/#more-3407

[SmokeOnTheWater]

Starr, do you think it's more or less likely that someone going to cause trouble at Prof. Cramer's house is going to go tooled up once they hear he's intending to use a gun to defend himself?

Or could it be that it will deter some people, but those who aren't deterred will go expecting and prepared for violence and there'll be a firefight at the end?

America's love affair with guns never ceases to amaze a lot of people over here. We've got enough problems with gangs carrying knives.

[Daryle Lamont Jenkins]

The group is on thin ice as it is. A faculty advisor that suggests he is going to shoot someone - self defense or not - doesn't help much.

[MrA]

The root of this is that he had fliers with his photo and address on them. If you think about this objectively then you can understand his comments to a degree.

If someone was distributing my photo and home address beacuse they disagreed with my views, bearing in mind that my wife lives there too, I'd be very unhappy about it and prone to making defensive statements.

I wonder what the British contingent of racists think of this? Is this man entitled to make threats of this nature?

[Jake Featherston]

Originally Posted by MrA

I wonder what the British contingent of racists think of this? Is this man entitled to make threats of this nature?

The man made no "threats." He simply noted that he kept a firearm in his home (as is almost certainly the case with the majority of the households in the state of North Carolina; I'd suspect North Carolina probably has the single highest rate of gun ownership of any state on the East Coast, and probably in the top 10 or 15 for the entire nation, based on various geographic & cultural attributes), and thus made the obvious inference that coming to his home, in order to make an illegal assault upon him, might not be the wisest course of action. Objectively, that is not a threat. Simply stating "I do not intend to sit back and submit to unlawful assault, and I happen to own a gun, just like most of my neighbours do, and unlike some of them, I'm practiced in its use," is not a "threat."

Even ten years ago, his remarks wouldn't have been controversial. I suspect if he'd been a faculty adviser to a pro-Obama group that was being harassed & intimidated in this manner, it still probably wouldn't result in a controversy sufficient to generate any news coverage. He'd probably just be asked by the university administration to tone it down.

[MrA]

Originally Posted by Jake Featherston

The man made no "threats." He simply noted that he kept a firearm in his home (as is almost certainly the case with the majority of the households in the state of North Carolina; I'd suspect North Carolina probably has the single highest rate of gun ownership of any state on the East Coast, and probably in the top 10 or 15 for the entire nation, based on various geographic & cultural attributes), and thus made the obvious inference that coming to his home, in order to make an illegal assault upon him, might not be the wisest course of action. Objectively, that is not a threat. Simply stating "I do not intend to sit back and submit to unlawful assault, and I happen to own a gun, just like most of my neighbours do, and unlike some of them, I'm practiced in its use," is not a "threat."

Even ten years ago, his remarks wouldn't have been controversial. I suspect if he'd been a faculty adviser to a pro-Obama group that was being harassed & intimidated in this manner, it still probably wouldn't result in a controversy sufficient to generate any news coverage. He'd probably just be asked by the university administration to tone it down.

I believe his comment to be a threat in the context that it was used,
"Thanks for your concern; I have a Colt .45 and I know how to use it." in reply to someone pointing out the threat against him. It wasn't simply stating that he possesed a gun in some conversation or other.

He was implying that should any threat present itself to him or his property he had the means to deal with it, ie the gun.

I was interested in hearing the opinion of a racialist Brit' reagrding whether the threat of reprisals is justified in this case.

[Jake Featherston]

Originally Posted by MrA

He was implying that should any threat present itself to him or his property he had the means to deal with it, ie the gun.

Yes, and that's not a threat. Stating one's ability & willingness to defend one's self from an unlawful assault in one's own home does not constitute a threat.

[MrA]

Originally Posted by Jake Featherston

Yes, and that's not a threat. Stating one's ability & willingness to defend one's self from an unlawful assault in one's own home does not constitute a threat.

Yes it does, although that's not the point I wanted to explore. He issued a counter threat, he has a gun and he'll use it, or else why make the statement at all? Anything that can cause harm fatal or otherwise will be classified as a threat. In fact he raised the ante by stating that he was willing to use a gun, which I would guess, by it's very nature means he is willing to kill.
So he is actually threatening to take drastic action should the need arise, anyway whether we agree about the definition of threat is neither here nor there.

Is the action he stated justified given the threat?

[Richard]

I am perhaps a little more qualified to speak about this than some of you. Myself, my family and my home have been threatened by violent anti-nationalist thugs. Thugs who are believed to have blown up a car less than 3 miles away from where i live (linky). This came about after Matt Single spitefully placed confidential BNP membership/supporter lists on the internet and anti-nationalists took it upon themselves to target the people who were named on those lists. I wasn't a BNP member at the time and had not been for a few years but my details were on the list and I was targeted.

It was not a pleasant experience. I have a disabled relative living here who was also being threatened. The police were about as useless as a rice pudding and offered no support.

I can honestly say that during the few weeks while we were being threatened if anyone had tried to enter my home during the night they would not have left in a good condition.

I will never forgive or forget that me and my family was targeted and threatened by anti-nationalists.

[Daryle Lamont Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Jake Featherston

North Carolina probably has the single highest rate of gun ownership of any state on the East Coast, and probably in the top 10 or 15 for the entire nation, based on various geographic & cultural attributes

North Carolina is number two on the East Coast, actually. South Carolina is number 1
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ownership.html

Even ten years ago, his remarks wouldn't have been controversial. I suspect if he'd been a faculty adviser to a pro-Obama group that was being harassed & intimidated in this manner, it still probably wouldn't result in a controversy sufficient to generate any news coverage. He'd probably just be asked by the university administration to tone it down.

You're probably right, but this is not a pro-Obama group. Expected disingenuous rationales aside, this was a white nationalist student group led by people who are in white nationalist circles that were pushing an agenda that made enemies who were not of European Heritage. Things were already dicey, and this advisor makes remarks that didn't help much. Besides, there are pro-Obama people that have made statements that they should not have made and were blown out of the water for.